Discussion:
WinCE 6.0 BSP (CEPC) for Virtual PC
(too old to reply)
GJ
2008-04-02 15:19:03 UTC
Permalink
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the hardware guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get familiar with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE 6.0 in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and found vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product, and if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not desireable at
this point).

I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this. I would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.

Thanks!
Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
2008-04-02 15:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more sense than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in the help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator image which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.

There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005 Pro or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows Mobile 6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could play with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.

Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the hardware guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get familiar with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE 6.0 in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and found vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product, and if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not desireable at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this. I would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
GJ
2008-04-02 16:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is using VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have to have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have VS2005 w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the value in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but in other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more sense than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in the help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator image which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005 Pro or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows Mobile 6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could play with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the hardware guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get familiar with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE 6.0 in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and found vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product, and if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not desireable at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this. I would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
2008-04-02 17:07:19 UTC
Permalink
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0, or 3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.

No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image, Platform Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can then be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.

Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is using VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have to have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have VS2005 w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the value in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but in other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more sense than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in the help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator image which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005 Pro or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows Mobile 6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could play with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the hardware guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get familiar with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE 6.0 in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and found vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not desireable at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this. I would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
GJ
2008-04-02 17:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the full .NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.

However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool to have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get into full
development, but all avenues should be explored.

Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise? I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a leap to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0, or 3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image, Platform Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can then be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is using VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have to have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have VS2005 w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the value in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but in other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more sense than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in the help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator image which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005 Pro or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows Mobile 6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could play with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the hardware guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get familiar with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE 6.0 in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and found vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not desireable at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this. I would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
Chris Tacke, eMVP
2008-04-02 17:56:38 UTC
Permalink
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server? There is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have the devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and deployed to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.

The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the full .NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool to have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get into full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a leap to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0, or 3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image, Platform Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can then be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is using VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have to have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have VS2005 w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the value in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but in other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more sense than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in the help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator image which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could play with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE 6.0 in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and found vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this. I would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
GJ
2008-04-02 18:38:01 UTC
Permalink
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the ICOP box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting on their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a pain in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but it's more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.

I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server? There is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have the devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and deployed to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the full .NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool to have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get into full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a leap to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0, or 3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image, Platform Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can then be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is using VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have to have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have VS2005 w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the value in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but in other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more sense than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in the help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator image which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could play with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE 6.0 in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and found vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this. I would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
2008-04-02 18:54:51 UTC
Permalink
OK, but don't put it on us to defend *your* decision. XPe and Windows CE
are not close in how they work. I went off and tried to do some XPe
development for a proof-of-concept a couple of years ago. Trying to apply
what I knew about Windows CE to it was a waste of time. I had to start with
what XPe was providing and think that way to do something. If you start out
from the other end, yes, you can probably do it, but you're wasting your
time. The closest you can get for a BSP for Virtual PC is "CEPC". Start
with that, if you like, but you're staring at the wrong end, according to
two guy who probably have 20 years combined CE development experience
between them...

Paul T.
Post by GJ
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the ICOP box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting on their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a pain in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but it's more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.
I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server? There is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have the devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and deployed to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the full .NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool to have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get into full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a leap to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0, or 3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image, Platform Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can then be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is
using
VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have to have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have VS2005 w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the
value
in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but
in
other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more
sense
than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in
the
help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator
image
which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could
play
with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE
6.0
in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and
found
vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this.
I
would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
Chris Tacke, eMVP
2008-04-02 18:56:54 UTC
Permalink
There is no lack of a virtual environment. The emulator provides what you
want: A virtualization of the platform that you can take anywhere. No VPC
necessary, and a pretty low cost. I don't see what you feel the VPC would
magically provide that the existing emulator does not. The suggestion for
hardware was because it's often even lower cost once you factor in the time
involved in doing the other work and the opportunity costs involved in that
time. The equation, IMO, looks something like this:

Which yields the lowest cost?

1: Purchase an eBox or similar low-cost hardware for each developer.
Pro: low cost, fast to get working
Con: physical device for each person, high number of devs would mean
higher cash cost
Time to running: Ship time + 1 day - 1 cal week
Cost: 1 dev day + hardware outlay

2. Use the emulator
Pro: BSP and platform readily available. Very portable result
Con: Have to learn how to generate CE images and use PB. Have to deploy
and integrate for each dev.
Time to running: Eval download time, plus training - 2 cal weeks
Cost: 10 dev days

3. Create a VPC CE image
Pro: Very portable result
Con: No complete BSP available. No obvious representative sample.
Time to running: Learn how to build an OAL and BSP - 1-2 months easily
without experience
Cost: 20-40 dev days bare minimum

If I hold the purse strings, #3 would rarely win.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the ICOP box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting on their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a pain in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but it's more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.
I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server? There is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have the devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and deployed to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the full .NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool to have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get into full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a leap to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0, or 3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image, Platform Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can then be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is
using
VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have to have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have VS2005 w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the
value
in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but
in
other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more
sense
than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in
the
help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator
image
which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could
play
with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE
6.0
in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and
found
vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this.
I
would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
GJ
2008-04-02 19:53:00 UTC
Permalink
My original intent of using a VPC has gotten lost amid all the strong
opinions. I do realize that I will be using hardware at some point, and also
the emulator. I was hoping there was a way I could get to cutting and
testing some POC code without dealing with CE images and PB immediately. I
was hoping there was a CEPC VPC out there... I don't want to create one, but
would purchase one if it was reasonably priced (this would be #4 on your
list). Yeah, maybe I made the mistake of thinking I could wait until the
decision was MADE to go with WinCE before diving into the nuts and bolts.

I was looking at this VPC as one tool in the tool chest. I'm not a big fan
of emulators, but they do have their place in the scheme of things, and I
will be using the WinCE emulator. Your hardware suggestion was valid, I just
thought virtual was nicer (it's usually easier to talk Software Mgrs into
purchasing software than hardware).

I'm not going to try to use my years of experience in developing non-CE
systems as club. I can defend myself in any decision I make, and will take
full responsibility for it. I would never tell anyone he/she is doing
something *wrong* without fully understanding the situation. If this is
indicative of what the WinCE community is like, I won't be joining the ranks
soon.

And Paul, the only waste of time was posting here.
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
There is no lack of a virtual environment. The emulator provides what you
want: A virtualization of the platform that you can take anywhere. No VPC
necessary, and a pretty low cost. I don't see what you feel the VPC would
magically provide that the existing emulator does not. The suggestion for
hardware was because it's often even lower cost once you factor in the time
involved in doing the other work and the opportunity costs involved in that
Which yields the lowest cost?
1: Purchase an eBox or similar low-cost hardware for each developer.
Pro: low cost, fast to get working
Con: physical device for each person, high number of devs would mean
higher cash cost
Time to running: Ship time + 1 day - 1 cal week
Cost: 1 dev day + hardware outlay
2. Use the emulator
Pro: BSP and platform readily available. Very portable result
Con: Have to learn how to generate CE images and use PB. Have to deploy
and integrate for each dev.
Time to running: Eval download time, plus training - 2 cal weeks
Cost: 10 dev days
3. Create a VPC CE image
Pro: Very portable result
Con: No complete BSP available. No obvious representative sample.
Time to running: Learn how to build an OAL and BSP - 1-2 months easily
without experience
Cost: 20-40 dev days bare minimum
If I hold the purse strings, #3 would rarely win.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the ICOP box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting on their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a pain in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but it's more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.
I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server? There is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have the devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and deployed to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the full .NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool to have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get into full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a leap to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0, or 3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image, Platform Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can then be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is
using
VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have to have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have VS2005 w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the
value
in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but
in
other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing
non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our
applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more
sense
than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install
VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in
the
help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator
image
which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going to be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could
play
with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE
platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE
6.0
in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and
found
vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial
product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this.
I
would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
2008-04-02 20:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Not that I've ever heard of. The ability to ship all the pieces that you'd
need to ship to "sell" a VPC image of Windows CE would be a licensing
nightmare. You can't even redistribute a CE OS image without a CE license
and that's supposed to be tied to a piece of hardware, etc. It's just a big
pile for anyone who would try to do that, I think. The closest that there's
ever been was the old Standard SDK (you might still be able to download that
somewhere on www.microsoft.com/downloads). It represented a device that had
a display, had windows, had keyboard I/O, had certain application
development components, etc. No real device ever matched this set of
components, exactly, but it would get you past generating the OS image
yourself, for this case, if your target system will have at least that set
of components in it.

Because every single Windows CE device is different, you basically *are*
stuck looking at it as building the right OS for *you*, then writing
applications for it. There's no standard set of things (none at all; one
device might have a display, keyboard, Internet Explorer, etc. and the other
might not even have the Window Manager, so APIs like CreateWindow() don't
even work), so, unlike XP, where you always have a fairly functional set of
things, no matter what sort of hardware/device you're targeting, CE can be
anything. There's no lowest common denominator list of features.

Sorry,
Paul T.
Post by GJ
My original intent of using a VPC has gotten lost amid all the strong
opinions. I do realize that I will be using hardware at some point, and also
the emulator. I was hoping there was a way I could get to cutting and
testing some POC code without dealing with CE images and PB immediately.
I
was hoping there was a CEPC VPC out there... I don't want to create one, but
would purchase one if it was reasonably priced (this would be #4 on your
list). Yeah, maybe I made the mistake of thinking I could wait until the
decision was MADE to go with WinCE before diving into the nuts and bolts.
I was looking at this VPC as one tool in the tool chest. I'm not a big fan
of emulators, but they do have their place in the scheme of things, and I
will be using the WinCE emulator. Your hardware suggestion was valid, I just
thought virtual was nicer (it's usually easier to talk Software Mgrs into
purchasing software than hardware).
I'm not going to try to use my years of experience in developing non-CE
systems as club. I can defend myself in any decision I make, and will take
full responsibility for it. I would never tell anyone he/she is doing
something *wrong* without fully understanding the situation. If this is
indicative of what the WinCE community is like, I won't be joining the ranks
soon.
And Paul, the only waste of time was posting here.
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
There is no lack of a virtual environment. The emulator provides what you
want: A virtualization of the platform that you can take anywhere. No VPC
necessary, and a pretty low cost. I don't see what you feel the VPC would
magically provide that the existing emulator does not. The suggestion for
hardware was because it's often even lower cost once you factor in the time
involved in doing the other work and the opportunity costs involved in that
Which yields the lowest cost?
1: Purchase an eBox or similar low-cost hardware for each developer.
Pro: low cost, fast to get working
Con: physical device for each person, high number of devs would mean
higher cash cost
Time to running: Ship time + 1 day - 1 cal week
Cost: 1 dev day + hardware outlay
2. Use the emulator
Pro: BSP and platform readily available. Very portable result
Con: Have to learn how to generate CE images and use PB. Have to deploy
and integrate for each dev.
Time to running: Eval download time, plus training - 2 cal weeks
Cost: 10 dev days
3. Create a VPC CE image
Pro: Very portable result
Con: No complete BSP available. No obvious representative sample.
Time to running: Learn how to build an OAL and BSP - 1-2 months easily
without experience
Cost: 20-40 dev days bare minimum
If I hold the purse strings, #3 would rarely win.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the ICOP box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting on their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a
pain
in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but it's more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.
I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server?
There
is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have
the
devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and
deployed
to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the
full
.NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool
to
have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get
into
full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a
leap
to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0,
or
3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image,
Platform
Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can
then
be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is
using
VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have
to
have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of
building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have
VS2005
w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the
value
in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but
in
other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing
non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our
applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more
sense
than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform
Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install
VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in
the
help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator
image
which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going
to
be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could
play
with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE
platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE
6.0
in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and
found
vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial
product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this.
I
would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
GJ
2008-04-02 20:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Paul. It may not be the answer I was hoping for, but you answered why
there isn't a CEPC VPC available.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Not that I've ever heard of. The ability to ship all the pieces that you'd
need to ship to "sell" a VPC image of Windows CE would be a licensing
nightmare. You can't even redistribute a CE OS image without a CE license
and that's supposed to be tied to a piece of hardware, etc. It's just a big
pile for anyone who would try to do that, I think. The closest that there's
ever been was the old Standard SDK (you might still be able to download that
somewhere on www.microsoft.com/downloads). It represented a device that had
a display, had windows, had keyboard I/O, had certain application
development components, etc. No real device ever matched this set of
components, exactly, but it would get you past generating the OS image
yourself, for this case, if your target system will have at least that set
of components in it.
Because every single Windows CE device is different, you basically *are*
stuck looking at it as building the right OS for *you*, then writing
applications for it. There's no standard set of things (none at all; one
device might have a display, keyboard, Internet Explorer, etc. and the other
might not even have the Window Manager, so APIs like CreateWindow() don't
even work), so, unlike XP, where you always have a fairly functional set of
things, no matter what sort of hardware/device you're targeting, CE can be
anything. There's no lowest common denominator list of features.
Sorry,
Paul T.
Post by GJ
My original intent of using a VPC has gotten lost amid all the strong
opinions. I do realize that I will be using hardware at some point, and also
the emulator. I was hoping there was a way I could get to cutting and
testing some POC code without dealing with CE images and PB immediately.
I
was hoping there was a CEPC VPC out there... I don't want to create one, but
would purchase one if it was reasonably priced (this would be #4 on your
list). Yeah, maybe I made the mistake of thinking I could wait until the
decision was MADE to go with WinCE before diving into the nuts and bolts.
I was looking at this VPC as one tool in the tool chest. I'm not a big fan
of emulators, but they do have their place in the scheme of things, and I
will be using the WinCE emulator. Your hardware suggestion was valid, I just
thought virtual was nicer (it's usually easier to talk Software Mgrs into
purchasing software than hardware).
I'm not going to try to use my years of experience in developing non-CE
systems as club. I can defend myself in any decision I make, and will take
full responsibility for it. I would never tell anyone he/she is doing
something *wrong* without fully understanding the situation. If this is
indicative of what the WinCE community is like, I won't be joining the ranks
soon.
And Paul, the only waste of time was posting here.
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
There is no lack of a virtual environment. The emulator provides what you
want: A virtualization of the platform that you can take anywhere. No VPC
necessary, and a pretty low cost. I don't see what you feel the VPC would
magically provide that the existing emulator does not. The suggestion for
hardware was because it's often even lower cost once you factor in the time
involved in doing the other work and the opportunity costs involved in that
Which yields the lowest cost?
1: Purchase an eBox or similar low-cost hardware for each developer.
Pro: low cost, fast to get working
Con: physical device for each person, high number of devs would mean
higher cash cost
Time to running: Ship time + 1 day - 1 cal week
Cost: 1 dev day + hardware outlay
2. Use the emulator
Pro: BSP and platform readily available. Very portable result
Con: Have to learn how to generate CE images and use PB. Have to deploy
and integrate for each dev.
Time to running: Eval download time, plus training - 2 cal weeks
Cost: 10 dev days
3. Create a VPC CE image
Pro: Very portable result
Con: No complete BSP available. No obvious representative sample.
Time to running: Learn how to build an OAL and BSP - 1-2 months easily
without experience
Cost: 20-40 dev days bare minimum
If I hold the purse strings, #3 would rarely win.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the ICOP box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting on their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a
pain
in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but it's more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.
I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server?
There
is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have
the
devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and
deployed
to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the
full
.NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool
to
have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get
into
full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a
leap
to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0,
or
3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image,
Platform
Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can
then
be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is
using
VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have
to
have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of
building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have
VS2005
w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the
value
in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but
in
other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing
non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our
applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more
sense
than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform
Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install
VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in
the
help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator
image
which
you can then play with to understand how application development
works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going
to
be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could
play
with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE
platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to
familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
2008-04-02 20:27:14 UTC
Permalink
I've been digging through the piles of junk that are installed on my CE
machine. It looks to me like, if you are targeting a device that will have
a display, windowing, etc. with resolution something like VGA, you could use
VS2008 with the Windows Mobile 6 Professional VGA Emulator (which you get
when you install the WM6 SDK), to do some early development. As I mentioned
in my first reply on this thread, this may not match what you'll end up with
in your own OS, but as a "find out what works and what doesn't", it should
be a pretty close match to Windows CE 5.0.

Paul T.

"Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]" <p space tobey no spam AT no instrument no spam DOT
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Not that I've ever heard of. The ability to ship all the pieces that
you'd need to ship to "sell" a VPC image of Windows CE would be a
licensing nightmare. You can't even redistribute a CE OS image without a
CE license and that's supposed to be tied to a piece of hardware, etc.
It's just a big pile for anyone who would try to do that, I think. The
closest that there's ever been was the old Standard SDK (you might still
be able to download that somewhere on www.microsoft.com/downloads). It
represented a device that had a display, had windows, had keyboard I/O,
had certain application development components, etc. No real device ever
matched this set of components, exactly, but it would get you past
generating the OS image yourself, for this case, if your target system
will have at least that set of components in it.
Because every single Windows CE device is different, you basically *are*
stuck looking at it as building the right OS for *you*, then writing
applications for it. There's no standard set of things (none at all; one
device might have a display, keyboard, Internet Explorer, etc. and the
other might not even have the Window Manager, so APIs like CreateWindow()
don't even work), so, unlike XP, where you always have a fairly functional
set of things, no matter what sort of hardware/device you're targeting, CE
can be anything. There's no lowest common denominator list of features.
Sorry,
Paul T.
Post by GJ
My original intent of using a VPC has gotten lost amid all the strong
opinions. I do realize that I will be using hardware at some point, and also
the emulator. I was hoping there was a way I could get to cutting and
testing some POC code without dealing with CE images and PB immediately.
I
was hoping there was a CEPC VPC out there... I don't want to create one, but
would purchase one if it was reasonably priced (this would be #4 on your
list). Yeah, maybe I made the mistake of thinking I could wait until the
decision was MADE to go with WinCE before diving into the nuts and bolts.
I was looking at this VPC as one tool in the tool chest. I'm not a big fan
of emulators, but they do have their place in the scheme of things, and I
will be using the WinCE emulator. Your hardware suggestion was valid, I just
thought virtual was nicer (it's usually easier to talk Software Mgrs into
purchasing software than hardware).
I'm not going to try to use my years of experience in developing non-CE
systems as club. I can defend myself in any decision I make, and will take
full responsibility for it. I would never tell anyone he/she is doing
something *wrong* without fully understanding the situation. If this is
indicative of what the WinCE community is like, I won't be joining the ranks
soon.
And Paul, the only waste of time was posting here.
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
There is no lack of a virtual environment. The emulator provides what you
want: A virtualization of the platform that you can take anywhere. No VPC
necessary, and a pretty low cost. I don't see what you feel the VPC would
magically provide that the existing emulator does not. The suggestion for
hardware was because it's often even lower cost once you factor in the time
involved in doing the other work and the opportunity costs involved in that
Which yields the lowest cost?
1: Purchase an eBox or similar low-cost hardware for each developer.
Pro: low cost, fast to get working
Con: physical device for each person, high number of devs would mean
higher cash cost
Time to running: Ship time + 1 day - 1 cal week
Cost: 1 dev day + hardware outlay
2. Use the emulator
Pro: BSP and platform readily available. Very portable result
Con: Have to learn how to generate CE images and use PB. Have to deploy
and integrate for each dev.
Time to running: Eval download time, plus training - 2 cal weeks
Cost: 10 dev days
3. Create a VPC CE image
Pro: Very portable result
Con: No complete BSP available. No obvious representative sample.
Time to running: Learn how to build an OAL and BSP - 1-2 months easily
without experience
Cost: 20-40 dev days bare minimum
If I hold the purse strings, #3 would rarely win.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the ICOP box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting
on
their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a
pain
in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but it's more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.
I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server?
There
is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have
the
devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and
deployed
to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the
full
.NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable
tool to
have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get
into
full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a
leap
to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The
full
.NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0,
or
3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so
your
tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image,
Platform
Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can
then
be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is
using
VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would
have to
have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of
building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have
VS2005
w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the
value
in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but
in
other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing
non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our
applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more
sense
than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform
Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install
VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in
the
help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator
image
which
you can then play with to understand how application
development
works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't
going to
be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could
play
with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE
platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE
6.0
in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and
found
vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial
product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this.
I
would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
2008-04-02 20:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Here's a link, but beware phrases like this on the page: "With Windows
Mobile 6, we are revising our SKU taxonomy and naming to better align our
brand and products with the realities of today's mobile device marketplace."
Revising our taxonomy, huh? ;-)

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=06111a3a-a651-4745-88ef-3d48091a390b&DisplayLang=en

Paul T.

"Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]" <p space tobey no spam AT no instrument no spam DOT
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
I've been digging through the piles of junk that are installed on my CE
machine. It looks to me like, if you are targeting a device that will
have a display, windowing, etc. with resolution something like VGA, you
could use VS2008 with the Windows Mobile 6 Professional VGA Emulator
(which you get when you install the WM6 SDK), to do some early
development. As I mentioned in my first reply on this thread, this may
not match what you'll end up with in your own OS, but as a "find out what
works and what doesn't", it should be a pretty close match to Windows CE
5.0.
Paul T.
"Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]" <p space tobey no spam AT no instrument no spam DOT
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Not that I've ever heard of. The ability to ship all the pieces that
you'd need to ship to "sell" a VPC image of Windows CE would be a
licensing nightmare. You can't even redistribute a CE OS image without a
CE license and that's supposed to be tied to a piece of hardware, etc.
It's just a big pile for anyone who would try to do that, I think. The
closest that there's ever been was the old Standard SDK (you might still
be able to download that somewhere on www.microsoft.com/downloads). It
represented a device that had a display, had windows, had keyboard I/O,
had certain application development components, etc. No real device ever
matched this set of components, exactly, but it would get you past
generating the OS image yourself, for this case, if your target system
will have at least that set of components in it.
Because every single Windows CE device is different, you basically *are*
stuck looking at it as building the right OS for *you*, then writing
applications for it. There's no standard set of things (none at all; one
device might have a display, keyboard, Internet Explorer, etc. and the
other might not even have the Window Manager, so APIs like CreateWindow()
don't even work), so, unlike XP, where you always have a fairly
functional set of things, no matter what sort of hardware/device you're
targeting, CE can be anything. There's no lowest common denominator list
of features.
Sorry,
Paul T.
Post by GJ
My original intent of using a VPC has gotten lost amid all the strong
opinions. I do realize that I will be using hardware at some point, and also
the emulator. I was hoping there was a way I could get to cutting and
testing some POC code without dealing with CE images and PB immediately.
I
was hoping there was a CEPC VPC out there... I don't want to create one, but
would purchase one if it was reasonably priced (this would be #4 on your
list). Yeah, maybe I made the mistake of thinking I could wait until the
decision was MADE to go with WinCE before diving into the nuts and bolts.
I was looking at this VPC as one tool in the tool chest. I'm not a big fan
of emulators, but they do have their place in the scheme of things, and I
will be using the WinCE emulator. Your hardware suggestion was valid, I just
thought virtual was nicer (it's usually easier to talk Software Mgrs into
purchasing software than hardware).
I'm not going to try to use my years of experience in developing non-CE
systems as club. I can defend myself in any decision I make, and will take
full responsibility for it. I would never tell anyone he/she is doing
something *wrong* without fully understanding the situation. If this is
indicative of what the WinCE community is like, I won't be joining the ranks
soon.
And Paul, the only waste of time was posting here.
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
There is no lack of a virtual environment. The emulator provides what you
want: A virtualization of the platform that you can take anywhere. No VPC
necessary, and a pretty low cost. I don't see what you feel the VPC would
magically provide that the existing emulator does not. The suggestion for
hardware was because it's often even lower cost once you factor in the time
involved in doing the other work and the opportunity costs involved in that
Which yields the lowest cost?
1: Purchase an eBox or similar low-cost hardware for each developer.
Pro: low cost, fast to get working
Con: physical device for each person, high number of devs would mean
higher cash cost
Time to running: Ship time + 1 day - 1 cal week
Cost: 1 dev day + hardware outlay
2. Use the emulator
Pro: BSP and platform readily available. Very portable result
Con: Have to learn how to generate CE images and use PB. Have to deploy
and integrate for each dev.
Time to running: Eval download time, plus training - 2 cal weeks
Cost: 10 dev days
3. Create a VPC CE image
Pro: Very portable result
Con: No complete BSP available. No obvious representative sample.
Time to running: Learn how to build an OAL and BSP - 1-2 months easily
without experience
Cost: 20-40 dev days bare minimum
If I hold the purse strings, #3 would rarely win.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the
ICOP
box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting
on
their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a
pain
in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but
it's
more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.
I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server?
There
is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have
the
devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and
deployed
to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a
product
itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the
full
.NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects
in
doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable
tool to
have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get
into
full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a
leap
to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The
full
.NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0,
2.0, or
3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so
your
tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image,
Platform
Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can
then
be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is
using
VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would
have to
have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of
building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have
VS2005
w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the
value
in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software
development, but
in
other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing
non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our
applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more
sense
than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform
Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install
VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in
the
help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator
image
which
you can then play with to understand how application
development
works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't
going to
be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could
play
with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE
platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to
familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE
6.0
in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and
found
vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial
product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do
this.
I
would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
Chris Tacke, eMVP
2008-04-02 20:17:30 UTC
Permalink
So posting here and getting feedback from people already in the industry was
a waste of your time? Your original post stated that you would buy a
commercial product, and "if one isn't available [you] would attempt to build
[your] own BSP...." It seems to me that Paul and I both stated that it
would be a waste of time to do so since an emulator already exists and that
you'd be better served spending your time getting familiar with it. If we
don't understand the full situation, I don't think we can be faulted for
that. We know only what you're told us.

You can do POC code with the emulator - again, just like the VPC. The
emulator and the VPC really have the same pitfalls, and if you actually will
be targeting say ARM architecture hardware, one could argue that emulator is
a better choice. Not sure why you feel that a VPC would somehow allow you
to do a POC but the emulator wouldn't (or an eBox for that matter - I mean
$200 in R&D is pretty close to no cost when you're considering rolling your
own hardware). I'm beginning to think that you've got a misunterstanding of
how the emulator works and that you may be of the impression that it's the
old piece-of-crap thing we had for years that no one ever used. The new one
actually is a virtual machine.

While Paul and I are often let say less than subtle, it's because we've seen
many people make mistakes and continue to follow them against advice that
others have given them and we're trying to help you avoid that. Trust me,
we don't think you're an idiot - we're both of the personality to tell you
that if we're thinking it, we don't leave that to being inferred.

Developing CE platforms is a whole new world to those who've not done it
before, at failures abound. Most of them were due to lack of information or
misapplying knowledge from other areas. We're simply trying to help you
avoid becoming one of those casualties and doing it without a sugar coating.
CE platform development is not easy (anyone who tells you otherwise,
including Microsoft's marketing people, are lying) but then neither is any
other embedded platform.

Now I'll get off the soapbox....
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
My original intent of using a VPC has gotten lost amid all the strong
opinions. I do realize that I will be using hardware at some point, and also
the emulator. I was hoping there was a way I could get to cutting and
testing some POC code without dealing with CE images and PB immediately.
I
was hoping there was a CEPC VPC out there... I don't want to create one, but
would purchase one if it was reasonably priced (this would be #4 on your
list). Yeah, maybe I made the mistake of thinking I could wait until the
decision was MADE to go with WinCE before diving into the nuts and bolts.
I was looking at this VPC as one tool in the tool chest. I'm not a big fan
of emulators, but they do have their place in the scheme of things, and I
will be using the WinCE emulator. Your hardware suggestion was valid, I just
thought virtual was nicer (it's usually easier to talk Software Mgrs into
purchasing software than hardware).
I'm not going to try to use my years of experience in developing non-CE
systems as club. I can defend myself in any decision I make, and will take
full responsibility for it. I would never tell anyone he/she is doing
something *wrong* without fully understanding the situation. If this is
indicative of what the WinCE community is like, I won't be joining the ranks
soon.
And Paul, the only waste of time was posting here.
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
There is no lack of a virtual environment. The emulator provides what you
want: A virtualization of the platform that you can take anywhere. No VPC
necessary, and a pretty low cost. I don't see what you feel the VPC would
magically provide that the existing emulator does not. The suggestion for
hardware was because it's often even lower cost once you factor in the time
involved in doing the other work and the opportunity costs involved in that
Which yields the lowest cost?
1: Purchase an eBox or similar low-cost hardware for each developer.
Pro: low cost, fast to get working
Con: physical device for each person, high number of devs would mean
higher cash cost
Time to running: Ship time + 1 day - 1 cal week
Cost: 1 dev day + hardware outlay
2. Use the emulator
Pro: BSP and platform readily available. Very portable result
Con: Have to learn how to generate CE images and use PB. Have to deploy
and integrate for each dev.
Time to running: Eval download time, plus training - 2 cal weeks
Cost: 10 dev days
3. Create a VPC CE image
Pro: Very portable result
Con: No complete BSP available. No obvious representative sample.
Time to running: Learn how to build an OAL and BSP - 1-2 months easily
without experience
Cost: 20-40 dev days bare minimum
If I hold the purse strings, #3 would rarely win.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
"Why?"... because we want to. Development has been done for XPE using the
VPC as a target and it works VERY well. The VPC is just like the ICOP box,
except it's virtual... no hardware to plug in or lug around; I can easily
take it home with me, or send it to a colleague. I can store it away and
easily retrieve it months (maybe years) later without the frustration of
finding long lost cabling. Some folks like to have hardware sitting on their
desk; me, not so much. Some folks like emulators; I think they are a
pain
in
the butt. I'm not saying a CEPC VPC is the perfect solution, but it's more
useful and/or viable as a tool than you give it credit for.
I'm truly amazed at the lack of affinity for a virtual environment... a
larger question is "Why?".
Post by Chris Tacke, eMVP
The large question is "why?" What purpose would this VPC server?
There
is
already an emulator that can be used as a target. Trying to get a CE OS
running on a VPC would be a lot of work for seemingly little (or no)
benefit. Just install the emulator BSP, generate an image and have
the
devs
use the that emulator as a target. In many cases, it would be less
expensive to just go buy each developer an ICOP eBox target than to even
spend the time trying to get the emulator builds generated and
deployed
to
the devs. They are inexpensive and have working CE images already loaded,
plus you can adjust the contents down the road if you so choose with PB.
The reality is that I've been doing non-WinMo CE development for a little
while now and I haven't loaded up an emulator in years. The times I have
were almost always to test something emulator related, not platform related.
Emulators can be useful, but you really have to treat it as a product itself
when developing your platform, and few OEMs go to that trouble since the
payback is often negligible.
--
Chris Tacke, Embedded MVP
OpenNETCF Consulting
Giving back to the embedded community
http://community.OpenNETCF.com
Post by GJ
Thanks for the info. I do understand that CE doesn't support the
full
.NET
Framework, and exploring what is "missing" is one of our objects in doing
this "pre" development work.
However, I do still believe that a CEPC VPC would be a valuable tool
to
have
at our finger tips. We may find that out differently once we get
into
full
development, but all avenues should be explored.
Is it that difficult to do that no one has done it, even as an exercise?
I
did find a CE 5.0 VPC on the web, so it can't be that great of a
leap
to
produce a WinCE 6.0 VPC.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
You won't be using .NET Framework 3.0 for CE development. The full .NET
framework does not run on Windows CE. Windows CE can, optionally, be
equipped by the device OEM with .NET *Compact Framework* 1.0, 2.0,
or
3.5.
VS2008 can be used for development with .NET CF 2.0 or 3.5, so your tools
are fine, if your OS is set up correctly.
No, application developers don't need Platform Builder. Once you've
generated an OS image and the corresponding emulator image,
Platform
Builder
allows you to generate a device SDK for that OS/device. This can
then
be
installed on any VS2005/2008-equipped system, where it can be used.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
Thanks Paul for your message. The software development group is
using
VS2008
and developing in C# and .NET 3.0. So, each developer would have
to
have
VS2005 w/PB installed also, even though they have no intension of
building
images. Other non-software team members would have to have
VS2005
w/PB
installed to test drive or demo the applications. I do see the
value
in
using the emulator for some aspects of the software development, but
in
other
aspects it's a hinderance. I would have a hard time convincing
non-software
developers into installing VS2005 + SP1 + PB just to look at our
applications.
Post by Paul G. Tobey [eMVP]
Platform Builder has an emulator target. I think that makes more
sense
than
trying to run the OS on a PC within a PC. Download the Platform
Builder
evaluation version via the www.microsoft.com/embedded page, install
VS2005
Pro and the evaluation and work through some of the tutorials in
the
help.
That will give you the ability to build some sort of an emulator
image
which
you can then play with to understand how application development works.
There's also the no-Platform-Builder option, if you aren't going
to
be
building Windows CE for your target hardware later. Install VS2005
Pro
or
better and one of Microsoft-provided SDKs. Something like Windows
Mobile
6
would do. That would give you an emulator target that you could
play
with.
Some of the APIs in WM6 are not available to generic Windows CE
platforms,
but, if you carefully avoid those, you should be able to familiarize
yourself with what you have to do.
Paul T.
Post by GJ
We are considering WinCE 6.0 for a new project, and while the
hardware
guys
are out looking at/evaluating platforms, I would like to get
familiar
with
WinCE 6.0 application development. My thought is to run WinCE
6.0
in a
Virtual PC environment (or Vmware). I've searched the web and
found
vague
references to being able to do this. I will buy a commercial
product,
and
if
one isn't available I would attempt to build my own BSP (not
desireable
at
this point).
I can't imagine that I'm the only one who would like to do this.
I
would
greatly appreciate any info on this subject.
Thanks!
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